1 00:00:11,299 --> 00:00:08,900 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:14,209 --> 00:00:11,309 with noted Australian UFO researcher 3 00:00:16,609 --> 00:00:14,219 Mary rod well the truth is that all 4 00:00:19,670 --> 00:00:16,619 we've ever got within ourselves is our 5 00:00:22,849 --> 00:00:19,680 own resonance to truth our own BS meter 6 00:00:25,070 --> 00:00:22,859 if you like and ultimately that is what 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:25,080 we're being asked to trust because we've 8 00:00:30,169 --> 00:00:27,810 got nothing else out there we are told a 9 00:00:32,930 --> 00:00:30,179 huge amounts of information some of its 10 00:00:35,209 --> 00:00:32,940 disinformation some of its lies what is 11 00:00:38,030 --> 00:00:35,219 it within us that resonates two truths 12 00:00:41,090 --> 00:00:38,040 and my role is to facilitate a place 13 00:00:43,100 --> 00:00:41,100 where they can find their truth in their 14 00:00:44,810 --> 00:00:43,110 experience and nobody has a right to 15 00:00:46,990 --> 00:00:44,820 tell them what to believe around that 16 00:01:00,779 --> 00:00:47,000 other than what they choose to believe 17 00:01:04,630 --> 00:01:02,979 welcome to skeptic oh where we explore 18 00:01:07,149 --> 00:01:04,640 controversial science with leading 19 00:01:09,460 --> 00:01:07,159 researchers thinkers and their critics 20 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:09,470 i'm your host Alex Karras and on this 21 00:01:14,889 --> 00:01:11,930 episode we're going to dive into a very 22 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:14,899 controversial topic relating to the 23 00:01:19,870 --> 00:01:17,450 connection between extended human 24 00:01:21,550 --> 00:01:19,880 consciousness near-death experiences out 25 00:01:23,950 --> 00:01:21,560 of body experiences spiritually 26 00:01:26,830 --> 00:01:23,960 transformative experiences that we talk 27 00:01:30,190 --> 00:01:26,840 so much about on this show and those who 28 00:01:32,559 --> 00:01:30,200 report contact with alien intelligence 29 00:01:34,899 --> 00:01:32,569 alien consciousness now one of the 30 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:34,909 things I find so fascinating after 31 00:01:39,940 --> 00:01:37,610 digging into this topic is the divided 32 00:01:43,859 --> 00:01:39,950 over the same issue that we keep 33 00:01:46,809 --> 00:01:43,869 pounding on that is mind equal brain ie 34 00:01:48,940 --> 00:01:46,819 extended human consciousness because 35 00:01:51,370 --> 00:01:48,950 what you're going to find in this show 36 00:01:54,249 --> 00:01:51,380 and the ones that follow is a major 37 00:01:56,770 --> 00:01:54,259 schism in the UFO community between 38 00:02:00,100 --> 00:01:56,780 those folks who are holding on to this 39 00:02:03,069 --> 00:02:00,110 biological robot notion now they don't 40 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:03,079 say it like that they probably haven't 41 00:02:08,229 --> 00:02:06,530 even internalized it completely but as 42 00:02:11,710 --> 00:02:08,239 soon as you start talking about 43 00:02:14,770 --> 00:02:11,720 spiritual experiences they're out the 44 00:02:17,979 --> 00:02:14,780 door so our guest today Mary Rodwell 45 00:02:21,039 --> 00:02:17,989 hypnotherapist counselor UFO and 46 00:02:24,039 --> 00:02:21,049 abductee researcher in Australia is 47 00:02:26,140 --> 00:02:24,049 certainly controversial if you have a 48 00:02:28,090 --> 00:02:26,150 hard time approaching this topic in the 49 00:02:31,090 --> 00:02:28,100 first place you're going to have an 50 00:02:34,390 --> 00:02:31,100 extra hard time listening to what Mary 51 00:02:37,210 --> 00:02:34,400 Rodwell has discovered in her over 2,000 52 00:02:39,630 --> 00:02:37,220 hypnotherapy sessions with folks who are 53 00:02:43,060 --> 00:02:39,640 dealing with the trauma of alien contact 54 00:02:46,090 --> 00:02:43,070 this phenomena is challenging but it 55 00:02:48,340 --> 00:02:46,100 cannot be overlooked if we're going to 56 00:02:50,580 --> 00:02:48,350 open ourselves up to all the 57 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:50,590 possibilities and the mysteries of 58 00:02:56,199 --> 00:02:53,810 extended human consciousness this is 59 00:02:58,870 --> 00:02:56,209 definitely one of the areas we need to 60 00:03:01,599 --> 00:02:58,880 look at and I think Mary despite the 61 00:03:04,270 --> 00:03:01,609 unconventional nature of her ideas is 62 00:03:07,689 --> 00:03:04,280 someone I found very intelligent very 63 00:03:09,490 --> 00:03:07,699 believable and very enjoyable to talk to 64 00:03:11,780 --> 00:03:09,500 I think you're going to enjoy this 65 00:03:13,309 --> 00:03:11,790 interview before I get to the end 66 00:03:14,959 --> 00:03:13,319 view though let me make one more point 67 00:03:17,690 --> 00:03:14,969 about the skeptical forum which I 68 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:17,700 mentioned in the last episode well since 69 00:03:23,959 --> 00:03:20,730 then the new skeptical forum is up and 70 00:03:26,179 --> 00:03:23,969 hobbling if you will we're still making 71 00:03:28,009 --> 00:03:26,189 a number of changes based on your 72 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:28,019 feedback and input it's been very 73 00:03:33,740 --> 00:03:30,450 helpful but one of the things I wanted 74 00:03:35,599 --> 00:03:33,750 to throw out there is an invitation to 75 00:03:38,119 --> 00:03:35,609 all of you who have visited the 76 00:03:41,179 --> 00:03:38,129 skeptical form in the past but maybe 77 00:03:43,839 --> 00:03:41,189 haven't been there in a while these kind 78 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:43,849 of dialogues between believers 79 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:46,290 uncomfortable in appropriate term and 80 00:03:51,770 --> 00:03:49,290 skeptics another uncomfortable and 81 00:03:54,050 --> 00:03:51,780 inappropriate term are the kind of 82 00:03:57,619 --> 00:03:54,060 conversations that we want to have 83 00:04:00,409 --> 00:03:57,629 they're not always easy they lead to 84 00:04:03,229 --> 00:04:00,419 hard feelings sometimes and they lead to 85 00:04:05,659 --> 00:04:03,239 people leaving the forum if you're one 86 00:04:08,509 --> 00:04:05,669 of those people we want to invite you 87 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:08,519 back we want to double our efforts to 88 00:04:14,030 --> 00:04:11,250 have that dialogue of course we're going 89 00:04:16,219 --> 00:04:14,040 to do it in a respectful intelligent way 90 00:04:18,379 --> 00:04:16,229 but when you join The Skeptical form 91 00:04:21,229 --> 00:04:18,389 you'll be part of that process so I 92 00:04:23,750 --> 00:04:21,239 think you can have a voice in what that 93 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:23,760 means to be respectful and intelligent 94 00:04:28,460 --> 00:04:26,610 while talking about those issues but I 95 00:04:31,010 --> 00:04:28,470 do want to encourage you to pop over 96 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:31,020 there and check it out and then help us 97 00:04:36,500 --> 00:04:33,690 grow that into the kind of experience 98 00:04:39,980 --> 00:04:36,510 that we all want to have when we engage 99 00:04:41,750 --> 00:04:39,990 in dialogue on these topics it's real 100 00:04:44,089 --> 00:04:41,760 easy to join and I think you'll like it 101 00:04:45,860 --> 00:04:44,099 give it a try the skeptical form the 102 00:04:48,379 --> 00:04:45,870 links are all over the place on the 103 00:04:51,830 --> 00:04:48,389 website but now let's move on to this 104 00:04:55,670 --> 00:04:51,840 interview with UFO and alien contact the 105 00:04:57,589 --> 00:04:55,680 researcher Mary rod will today we 106 00:04:59,540 --> 00:04:57,599 welcome Mary Rodwell the skeptic Oh 107 00:05:01,790 --> 00:04:59,550 Mary's a professional counselor and 108 00:05:04,550 --> 00:05:01,800 hypnotherapist as well as being one of 109 00:05:07,700 --> 00:05:04,560 Australia's best known and most highly 110 00:05:09,469 --> 00:05:07,710 regarded UFO researchers Mary is the 111 00:05:12,890 --> 00:05:09,479 founder of the Australian close 112 00:05:15,110 --> 00:05:12,900 encounter resource network a CERN where 113 00:05:18,589 --> 00:05:15,120 she helps those dealing with the 114 00:05:20,990 --> 00:05:18,599 aftermath of alien contact experience 115 00:05:24,470 --> 00:05:21,000 Mary welcome to skeptic oh thanks so 116 00:05:27,500 --> 00:05:24,480 much for joining me it's a pleasure Alex 117 00:05:28,670 --> 00:05:27,510 well it's a big pleasure for me as we 118 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:28,680 were just chatting about a minute ago 119 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:31,650 I've seen many of your excellent 120 00:05:35,330 --> 00:05:33,930 interviews you're really one thing I 121 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:35,340 have to commend you when you're really a 122 00:05:40,580 --> 00:05:38,250 very open and generous with your time 123 00:05:43,060 --> 00:05:40,590 you give many interviews too many people 124 00:05:45,620 --> 00:05:43,070 I can see that you're very committed to 125 00:05:47,840 --> 00:05:45,630 spreading this information and you do it 126 00:05:50,750 --> 00:05:47,850 in such a great way I really want to 127 00:05:54,470 --> 00:05:50,760 commend you on that thank you Alex I 128 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:54,480 think that for me it's it's about the 129 00:05:59,570 --> 00:05:57,090 fact that people are so discriminated in 130 00:06:03,050 --> 00:05:59,580 terms of their own personal experiences 131 00:06:05,270 --> 00:06:03,060 to the point of almost anyone that's out 132 00:06:08,810 --> 00:06:05,280 of the box is considered abnormal in 133 00:06:10,610 --> 00:06:08,820 some way and for me it's it's this 134 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:10,620 discrimination against personal 135 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:12,450 experience which i think is the hardest 136 00:06:16,070 --> 00:06:14,490 thing most of us have to deal with 137 00:06:17,750 --> 00:06:16,080 because of the judgment that goes with 138 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:17,760 that I think that's a great way of 139 00:06:21,470 --> 00:06:19,650 saying it you know as we're just 140 00:06:23,990 --> 00:06:21,480 chatting about a minute ago on this show 141 00:06:26,390 --> 00:06:24,000 we've looked at near-death experience 142 00:06:28,730 --> 00:06:26,400 quite a bit and there is a similar kind 143 00:06:31,910 --> 00:06:28,740 of stigma there although that's much 144 00:06:34,610 --> 00:06:31,920 relieved now with the media really kind 145 00:06:37,820 --> 00:06:34,620 of the popular media catching on to that 146 00:06:39,950 --> 00:06:37,830 the experience is no longer stigmatized 147 00:06:42,140 --> 00:06:39,960 in the same way but certainly when you 148 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:42,150 talk about people who had such an 149 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:44,970 experience 20 or 30 years ago they say I 150 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:47,970 told no one I couldn't tell anyone and 151 00:06:52,610 --> 00:06:51,210 that certainly is a situation that 152 00:06:55,540 --> 00:06:52,620 you're familiar with when we talk about 153 00:06:57,590 --> 00:06:55,550 close encounter alien contact 154 00:07:00,320 --> 00:06:57,600 experiences I'll tell you what before I 155 00:07:02,210 --> 00:07:00,330 get too far along for folks who are less 156 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:02,220 familiar with your work can you tell us 157 00:07:08,660 --> 00:07:04,770 a little bit about yourself and how you 158 00:07:10,730 --> 00:07:08,670 got started doing this work absolutely 159 00:07:13,550 --> 00:07:10,740 well my background is nursing midwifery 160 00:07:15,890 --> 00:07:13,560 and for a number of years obviously I'm 161 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:15,900 practice my profession there but I went 162 00:07:20,420 --> 00:07:18,330 into professional counseling about 25 to 163 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:20,430 30 years ago and I've done in the whole 164 00:07:25,430 --> 00:07:23,250 gamut from you know from relationship 165 00:07:27,710 --> 00:07:25,440 counseling to grief and bereavement to 166 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:27,720 the whole range of what we call the more 167 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:30,810 accepted normal human experiences but it 168 00:07:35,740 --> 00:07:33,770 was about 8 17 or 18 years ago I had 169 00:07:37,570 --> 00:07:35,750 I was in private practice and a 170 00:07:40,420 --> 00:07:37,580 gentleman came to me and he said I'm 171 00:07:42,670 --> 00:07:40,430 heard you're open-minded and he said for 172 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:42,680 this there's no support groups for this 173 00:07:47,529 --> 00:07:44,930 people just think you're a looney and he 174 00:07:51,300 --> 00:07:47,539 said but he said I'm having experiences 175 00:07:53,950 --> 00:07:51,310 my family is but the children he said I 176 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:53,960 you know I feel like I'm being taken 177 00:07:58,600 --> 00:07:55,970 somewhere I wake up with marks on my 178 00:07:59,649 --> 00:07:58,610 body shaved areas he said the relatives 179 00:08:01,960 --> 00:07:59,659 won't even come to the house because 180 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:01,970 they think it's demons and he said and 181 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:04,490 my partner is freaked out can you help 182 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:08,210 and it was that scenario that brought me 183 00:08:13,420 --> 00:08:10,610 into this and what was I was grateful 184 00:08:15,339 --> 00:08:13,430 for as synchronicities would have it I'm 185 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:15,349 one of these people that has always read 186 00:08:19,899 --> 00:08:18,050 anything that's unusual if it's weird 187 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:19,909 and wonderful i read about it I've got a 188 00:08:24,180 --> 00:08:21,530 book on it if it's something weird i got 189 00:08:26,709 --> 00:08:24,190 a book on it you know unfortunately 190 00:08:28,899 --> 00:08:26,719 because of that I've always been more 191 00:08:31,990 --> 00:08:28,909 open to the mysteries as i call them in 192 00:08:34,540 --> 00:08:32,000 life and one of these fortunately i'd 193 00:08:36,969 --> 00:08:34,550 read two books prior to this only a few 194 00:08:39,339 --> 00:08:36,979 months prior and one was dr. John Mack 195 00:08:41,649 --> 00:08:39,349 who is the former professor of 196 00:08:43,719 --> 00:08:41,659 psychiatry at Harvard University who 197 00:08:46,060 --> 00:08:43,729 wrote abductions human encounters with 198 00:08:48,460 --> 00:08:46,070 aliens and also communion which 199 00:08:51,090 --> 00:08:48,470 witnessed Reavers book who again wrote 200 00:08:54,730 --> 00:08:51,100 about his own personal encounters 201 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:54,740 fortunately I was a read those and so 202 00:09:00,100 --> 00:08:57,170 when this gentleman came to me I was 203 00:09:03,310 --> 00:09:00,110 intrigued he was obviously very grounded 204 00:09:05,260 --> 00:09:03,320 he were he was very articulate it was to 205 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:05,270 me there was no question that this was 206 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:07,130 happening to him in the way that he 207 00:09:11,139 --> 00:09:09,050 described it I was doing advanced 208 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:11,149 counseling at the time at the Wasley 209 00:09:16,510 --> 00:09:13,370 Institute and I actually took him as a 210 00:09:17,829 --> 00:09:16,520 case study which I felt very brave to do 211 00:09:19,420 --> 00:09:17,839 because I thought that gonna think 212 00:09:21,970 --> 00:09:19,430 Mary's lost the plot as they kept saying 213 00:09:24,730 --> 00:09:21,980 in Australia but what was interesting 214 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:24,740 was there was a uniting Minister there 215 00:09:30,579 --> 00:09:28,370 was social workers and a whole range of 216 00:09:32,230 --> 00:09:30,589 professionals and when I presented his 217 00:09:34,660 --> 00:09:32,240 case I thought they were all going to 218 00:09:37,329 --> 00:09:34,670 say what Mary his obviously needs to see 219 00:09:40,030 --> 00:09:37,339 a psychiatrist or whatever but what they 220 00:09:43,060 --> 00:09:40,040 did do was they started to tell me about 221 00:09:45,010 --> 00:09:43,070 their own unusual experiences and it was 222 00:09:46,970 --> 00:09:45,020 fascinating it was like I'd opened the 223 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:46,980 door for people to say 224 00:09:51,410 --> 00:09:49,050 well actually these kinds of things 225 00:09:54,410 --> 00:09:51,420 happen to me all these you know I've had 226 00:09:57,740 --> 00:09:54,420 things I can't explain so in a sense it 227 00:09:59,600 --> 00:09:57,750 was a real clue to so what else is out 228 00:10:01,550 --> 00:09:59,610 there how many other people don't talk 229 00:10:04,340 --> 00:10:01,560 about certain experiences because 230 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:04,350 they're not okay but what it did do was 231 00:10:09,110 --> 00:10:06,810 say how limited psychology was in terms 232 00:10:11,300 --> 00:10:09,120 of understanding the greater reality and 233 00:10:13,970 --> 00:10:11,310 how we've got to start seeing it as a 234 00:10:16,250 --> 00:10:13,980 dysfunction rather than the fact that we 235 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:16,260 don't fit into we don't all fit into 236 00:10:21,139 --> 00:10:18,570 that box that that says and as you can 237 00:10:23,090 --> 00:10:21,149 touch feel and see it it's real in fact 238 00:10:25,389 --> 00:10:23,100 there's a whole non physical world and 239 00:10:28,310 --> 00:10:25,399 now we've got we are actually 240 00:10:30,410 --> 00:10:28,320 experiencing it on many levels and all 241 00:10:32,569 --> 00:10:30,420 of us have done this at some point or 242 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:32,579 another you know I think that's there's 243 00:10:35,150 --> 00:10:33,810 a couple of things you said there that 244 00:10:36,259 --> 00:10:35,160 are really interesting and they're 245 00:10:39,590 --> 00:10:36,269 different so I want to break them apart 246 00:10:43,490 --> 00:10:39,600 one is you referenced John Mack and that 247 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:43,500 is someone who I often use as an entry 248 00:10:48,170 --> 00:10:44,970 point for people who are unfamiliar with 249 00:10:49,759 --> 00:10:48,180 this work he is so credible not only in 250 00:10:51,170 --> 00:10:49,769 his credentials but in the way he comes 251 00:10:54,170 --> 00:10:51,180 across and of course he's no longer with 252 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:54,180 us died of an accident unfortunately a 253 00:11:00,860 --> 00:10:56,490 few years ago but I don't know how 254 00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:00,870 anyone can encounter John Mack and his 255 00:11:08,150 --> 00:11:03,600 research and come away from this without 256 00:11:10,579 --> 00:11:08,160 being intrigued to look further so I 257 00:11:12,019 --> 00:11:10,589 think that's a great starting point the 258 00:11:13,189 --> 00:11:12,029 other thing that you mentioned and I've 259 00:11:15,110 --> 00:11:13,199 picked this up from some of your 260 00:11:18,350 --> 00:11:15,120 presentations that I think is really a 261 00:11:21,370 --> 00:11:18,360 profound point that you make and that's 262 00:11:25,730 --> 00:11:21,380 that we have to start thinking about 263 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:25,740 consciousness in a much broader sense 264 00:11:31,970 --> 00:11:29,130 and it seems to me that a lot of this 265 00:11:33,650 --> 00:11:31,980 work that that we're talking about and 266 00:11:36,790 --> 00:11:33,660 this other areas like i mentioned 267 00:11:39,620 --> 00:11:36,800 near-death experience hallucinogenic 268 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:39,630 experiences remote viewing out-of-body 269 00:11:47,449 --> 00:11:43,889 travel all these things point to this 270 00:11:50,180 --> 00:11:47,459 larger consciousness that is available 271 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:50,190 to us but i really like the way you go 272 00:11:55,460 --> 00:11:52,410 out there and just nail it and say look 273 00:11:58,069 --> 00:11:55,470 we can't pretend like gee we've stumbled 274 00:12:00,439 --> 00:11:58,079 across near-death experience ah that's 275 00:12:00,910 --> 00:12:00,449 one little piece oh gee we've stumbled 276 00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:00,920 across 277 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:03,440 ghost phenomena oh you know though that 278 00:12:08,199 --> 00:12:05,930 couldn't be related and I think what I 279 00:12:11,079 --> 00:12:08,209 hear you saying is come on people it's 280 00:12:14,980 --> 00:12:11,089 obvious by now just follow the trails 281 00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:14,990 we're talking about a much bigger kind 282 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:16,880 of experience that we have to get our 283 00:12:21,189 --> 00:12:19,250 arms around how do we begin to do that 284 00:12:22,780 --> 00:12:21,199 how do we begin to what are the limits 285 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:22,790 of that too because that's challenging 286 00:12:26,829 --> 00:12:25,130 when we when the tent gets too broad 287 00:12:29,199 --> 00:12:26,839 then we start getting in a lot of stuff 288 00:12:30,519 --> 00:12:29,209 that maybe we start making all of us a 289 00:12:32,560 --> 00:12:30,529 little uncomfortable that we're not 290 00:12:34,990 --> 00:12:32,570 staying grounded in what we really do 291 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:35,000 have the best data on that was a long 292 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:37,490 long question but maybe you get what I'm 293 00:12:42,939 --> 00:12:40,730 coming from on that I think everything 294 00:12:44,829 --> 00:12:42,949 you're saying Alex is absolutely right 295 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:44,839 what I've found is I've gone down as 296 00:12:49,810 --> 00:12:47,810 they as i call it the rabbit hole the 297 00:12:52,620 --> 00:12:49,820 more you go down the rabbit hole you 298 00:12:56,230 --> 00:12:52,630 realize how little we know about reality 299 00:12:59,199 --> 00:12:56,240 and the truth is that all of us have 300 00:13:01,470 --> 00:12:59,209 experiences out of the box and the the 301 00:13:04,629 --> 00:13:01,480 feeling like someone's going to ring and 302 00:13:07,150 --> 00:13:04,639 the the knowing that it's not a good day 303 00:13:09,519 --> 00:13:07,160 to do a certain thing and then you have 304 00:13:12,579 --> 00:13:09,529 that confirmed don't get on that plane 305 00:13:15,250 --> 00:13:12,589 and then the plane yeah frog yes you're 306 00:13:17,170 --> 00:13:15,260 perfect that's right that those feelings 307 00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:17,180 and knowings that we get that we can't 308 00:13:22,540 --> 00:13:20,480 quantify with our left brain but nine 309 00:13:25,569 --> 00:13:22,550 times out of ten are accurate totally 310 00:13:27,220 --> 00:13:25,579 accurate and we dismiss them because we 311 00:13:29,710 --> 00:13:27,230 can't quantify them through our left 312 00:13:32,519 --> 00:13:29,720 brain but the truth is that is another 313 00:13:36,250 --> 00:13:32,529 part of us which I call our our 314 00:13:38,470 --> 00:13:36,260 consciousness that is way beyond our 315 00:13:40,300 --> 00:13:38,480 physical container that gives us 316 00:13:42,220 --> 00:13:40,310 information if we listen to it and 317 00:13:44,380 --> 00:13:42,230 that's what you know people who are 318 00:13:46,660 --> 00:13:44,390 psychic are doing is they're honoring 319 00:13:48,790 --> 00:13:46,670 that other part of them but perceive 320 00:13:50,829 --> 00:13:48,800 things out of the box I mean I meet 321 00:13:53,380 --> 00:13:50,839 people all the time thats a merry I see 322 00:13:55,509 --> 00:13:53,390 energies around people I see colors 323 00:13:57,850 --> 00:13:55,519 around people you know they may say it 324 00:14:00,790 --> 00:13:57,860 when somebody's sick I know what it is I 325 00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:00,800 can feel what's going on for them others 326 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:03,110 as we know clairvoyants that see spirits 327 00:14:07,870 --> 00:14:05,569 or those that see orbs flowing around 328 00:14:10,660 --> 00:14:07,880 you know that we get on cameras now and 329 00:14:12,820 --> 00:14:10,670 what have you so is this all an 330 00:14:14,950 --> 00:14:12,830 aberration of our reality or is it 331 00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:14,960 in fact these people telling us more 332 00:14:20,350 --> 00:14:17,510 about what our multi-dimensional reality 333 00:14:23,410 --> 00:14:20,360 is because it isn't a third dimensional 334 00:14:25,870 --> 00:14:23,420 reality we know now that a lot of these 335 00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:25,880 things can even be understood through 336 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:28,310 quantum mechanics or quantum science 337 00:14:33,100 --> 00:14:30,530 where you know we've been told the 338 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:33,110 possibility of dimensions and parallel 339 00:14:37,780 --> 00:14:35,330 universes and the expanding universe so 340 00:14:40,930 --> 00:14:37,790 all of this in a way is the new science 341 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:40,940 is actually qualifying how we work in 342 00:14:47,530 --> 00:14:43,690 this kind of a way where we can tap into 343 00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:47,540 consciousness itself and these are we're 344 00:14:52,750 --> 00:14:49,760 getting the clues from science itself 345 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:52,760 and this is what people don't get always 346 00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:54,410 is that that we're still you know those 347 00:14:58,480 --> 00:14:56,000 in the old paradigm that saying unless 348 00:15:00,820 --> 00:14:58,490 you can touch and feel it it's real what 349 00:15:03,010 --> 00:15:00,830 you know my answer is okay so you know 350 00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:03,020 love is real tell me what form it takes 351 00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:05,510 tell me what color it is you know tell 352 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:07,310 me how you know it's there and they say 353 00:15:13,690 --> 00:15:11,810 but i just know exactly so you know and 354 00:15:15,850 --> 00:15:13,700 all these things really is saying the 355 00:15:17,740 --> 00:15:15,860 same thing boy i mean that's a topic 356 00:15:19,690 --> 00:15:17,750 we've talked about a lot I mean there's 357 00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:19,700 actually another layer to materialistic 358 00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:21,440 science that insists that everything 359 00:15:27,130 --> 00:15:23,600 should be measured and the other layer 360 00:15:29,350 --> 00:15:27,140 is really it's been falsified by the 361 00:15:31,090 --> 00:15:29,360 best science that we have suggest that 362 00:15:33,460 --> 00:15:31,100 that's not really the way it is and then 363 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:33,470 I think that quickly gets into what why 364 00:15:39,270 --> 00:15:35,650 are things the way they are why do 365 00:15:41,830 --> 00:15:39,280 paradigms remain even after they've been 366 00:15:45,850 --> 00:15:41,840 falsified and that's a whole other topic 367 00:15:48,310 --> 00:15:45,860 so Mary a few months ago we had an 368 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:48,320 opportunity to talk with dr. Janet 369 00:15:52,780 --> 00:15:51,050 collie and she's a clinical therapist 370 00:15:55,660 --> 00:15:52,790 you might know her in the Seattle area 371 00:15:59,140 --> 00:15:55,670 of the US and she's done a lot of work 372 00:16:01,720 --> 00:15:59,150 with people who claim an alien encounter 373 00:16:03,700 --> 00:16:01,730 it's caused trauma in their life they 374 00:16:05,770 --> 00:16:03,710 come and see her as a therapist and 375 00:16:09,370 --> 00:16:05,780 she's come to a lot of the same 376 00:16:12,100 --> 00:16:09,380 conclusions you have in particular that 377 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:12,110 the essentially the core of these 378 00:16:16,210 --> 00:16:14,330 experiences these alien contact 379 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:16,220 experiences we can only dance around 380 00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:18,170 that so much at some point we have to 381 00:16:22,450 --> 00:16:19,910 say that's what we're talking about here 382 00:16:24,610 --> 00:16:22,460 folks and we are as uncomfortable as 383 00:16:26,070 --> 00:16:24,620 that is for some people to really grasp 384 00:16:28,110 --> 00:16:26,080 I think 385 00:16:31,110 --> 00:16:28,120 as anyone who's dug into this and as 386 00:16:33,690 --> 00:16:31,120 we're alluding to if you really dip into 387 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:33,700 the research there's a reality to it 388 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:37,690 that is hard to look away from the data 389 00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:39,970 is just so overwhelming that this is 390 00:16:44,940 --> 00:16:42,910 really happening but I I digress there 391 00:16:47,370 --> 00:16:44,950 for a minute dr. Kiley comes the 392 00:16:51,210 --> 00:16:47,380 conclusion as you do that these are 393 00:16:54,110 --> 00:16:51,220 essentially sacred encounters spiritual 394 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:54,120 encounters spiritually transformative 395 00:16:58,890 --> 00:16:57,010 experiences one of the things I was 396 00:17:00,720 --> 00:16:58,900 really hoping we could do and I don't 397 00:17:03,210 --> 00:17:00,730 know if we can do it completely in this 398 00:17:06,120 --> 00:17:03,220 interview but I almost want to set it up 399 00:17:08,310 --> 00:17:06,130 as something that if we find a way down 400 00:17:12,660 --> 00:17:08,320 the road to engage in this as a project 401 00:17:16,620 --> 00:17:12,670 and that is to juxtapose the sacred in 402 00:17:20,190 --> 00:17:16,630 sacred alien encounter with the other 403 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:20,200 major alien encounter paradigm that's 404 00:17:26,010 --> 00:17:22,650 out there and that is from budd hopkins 405 00:17:27,870 --> 00:17:26,020 deceased and his research partner who is 406 00:17:31,050 --> 00:17:27,880 very active very much alive and very 407 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:31,060 highly respected and that's dr. david 408 00:17:36,780 --> 00:17:34,050 jacobs formerly of the temple university 409 00:17:39,390 --> 00:17:36,790 historian but someone who's done a lot 410 00:17:40,980 --> 00:17:39,400 of research in this area I've correspond 411 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:40,990 with him we're setting up an interview 412 00:17:46,350 --> 00:17:43,690 with him and of course his conclusion is 413 00:17:50,550 --> 00:17:46,360 very different his conclusion is that 414 00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:50,560 these are not sacred encounters the into 415 00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:52,510 the extent that we perceive them to be 416 00:17:57,060 --> 00:17:54,370 sacred encounters we have to be very 417 00:18:01,590 --> 00:17:57,070 careful that we're not being deceived 418 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:01,600 and that there is a much more monovalent 419 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:05,410 agenda at foot with these encounters so 420 00:18:11,250 --> 00:18:09,010 that's a huge area let's begin to kind 421 00:18:13,890 --> 00:18:11,260 of pull that apart and as much as you're 422 00:18:15,810 --> 00:18:13,900 comfortable doing so tell me your your 423 00:18:17,850 --> 00:18:15,820 big level picture of what's the 424 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:17,860 difference there and where you think the 425 00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:22,170 evidence stacks up that's a big one and 426 00:18:28,410 --> 00:18:25,510 for me and there are the trouble is that 427 00:18:31,140 --> 00:18:28,420 it's so complex and so multi-layered it 428 00:18:34,110 --> 00:18:31,150 really depends on what level that you're 429 00:18:35,820 --> 00:18:34,120 exploring this if you go into for 430 00:18:39,029 --> 00:18:35,830 example I 431 00:18:41,909 --> 00:18:39,039 hypnotherapy where the person is just 432 00:18:45,269 --> 00:18:41,919 exploring this scenario which for many 433 00:18:48,330 --> 00:18:45,279 of those were coming in on this will 434 00:18:50,549 --> 00:18:48,340 only do that they will actually see the 435 00:18:52,259 --> 00:18:50,559 person on the craft they will see the 436 00:18:55,980 --> 00:18:52,269 person perhaps having procedures done 437 00:18:59,399 --> 00:18:55,990 and that confirms the scenario that yes 438 00:19:02,310 --> 00:18:59,409 you've been taken you've had a procedure 439 00:19:04,380 --> 00:19:02,320 done your you're not aware that this is 440 00:19:08,039 --> 00:19:04,390 something you've consented to how 441 00:19:11,610 --> 00:19:08,049 terrible and this is often the level 442 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:11,620 that where it stops and from that it's 443 00:19:15,269 --> 00:19:13,450 understandable that you would interpret 444 00:19:18,590 --> 00:19:15,279 that and the person would interpret that 445 00:19:21,690 --> 00:19:18,600 as something that is negative and 446 00:19:24,060 --> 00:19:21,700 certainly unethical and all those kinds 447 00:19:26,310 --> 00:19:24,070 of things but if you take it to another 448 00:19:29,279 --> 00:19:26,320 level and there is another level that 449 00:19:33,570 --> 00:19:29,289 you can work on within hypnosis and that 450 00:19:35,490 --> 00:19:33,580 is to find out why now what the way that 451 00:19:37,769 --> 00:19:35,500 I have worked and those that work on 452 00:19:40,919 --> 00:19:37,779 deeper levels is that you're actually 453 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:40,929 what I call accessing another part of 454 00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:42,490 that person it's not just the 455 00:19:46,409 --> 00:19:44,320 subconscious I mean for want of a better 456 00:19:49,289 --> 00:19:46,419 term we'd call it the superconscious or 457 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:49,299 that part of you that knows it's the 458 00:19:54,060 --> 00:19:51,250 part of you that knows when somebody 459 00:19:56,430 --> 00:19:54,070 comes to the front door that that person 460 00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:56,440 is someone you can let in or someone you 461 00:20:00,180 --> 00:19:57,970 want to keep the other side of the door 462 00:20:03,210 --> 00:20:00,190 there's our knowing that that is a 463 00:20:06,509 --> 00:20:03,220 positive encounter or another positive 464 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:06,519 one what you can do in the process of 465 00:20:11,759 --> 00:20:09,490 hypnosis is to ask questions of that 466 00:20:14,549 --> 00:20:11,769 other part of them and it can be done 467 00:20:17,340 --> 00:20:14,559 via communicating with the being that's 468 00:20:19,379 --> 00:20:17,350 in in the room and you can say um okay 469 00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:19,389 so you're brought here you're having a 470 00:20:24,930 --> 00:20:22,000 procedure ask them what they're doing 471 00:20:28,019 --> 00:20:24,940 and so they may say are there taking 472 00:20:30,060 --> 00:20:28,029 genetic material or they may be doing a 473 00:20:32,460 --> 00:20:30,070 healing that you didn't realize what 474 00:20:34,289 --> 00:20:32,470 they were doing or that they're telling 475 00:20:37,470 --> 00:20:34,299 me information of why this needs to be 476 00:20:39,690 --> 00:20:37,480 done and then I say to them how does you 477 00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:39,700 know does that make sense to you does it 478 00:20:44,610 --> 00:20:41,769 resonate with you does that feel right 479 00:20:47,279 --> 00:20:44,620 and they can say yes or they can say no 480 00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:47,289 but it usually is yes it makes sense 481 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:48,510 even although it's 482 00:20:54,620 --> 00:20:50,850 range one of the other things i do 483 00:20:57,260 --> 00:20:54,630 because i work with people you know i do 484 00:20:59,240 --> 00:20:57,270 work with past lives i do work with that 485 00:21:01,510 --> 00:20:59,250 what i call the spiritual aspect of the 486 00:21:04,370 --> 00:21:01,520 person which you can call the 487 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:04,380 superconscious the higher self the the 488 00:21:10,870 --> 00:21:07,410 part of you that knows I usually ask 489 00:21:14,740 --> 00:21:10,880 this question have you on any level 490 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:14,750 consented to this experience and what is 491 00:21:19,910 --> 00:21:17,730 initially was very confronting for me as 492 00:21:22,130 --> 00:21:19,920 well as my clients is they would 493 00:21:24,650 --> 00:21:22,140 perceive themselves as a ball of light 494 00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:24,660 before they came here and they would say 495 00:21:29,810 --> 00:21:27,360 I came here and I agreed for this 496 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:29,820 because this is part of helping with 497 00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:32,610 consciousness and there is a trade and I 498 00:21:38,060 --> 00:21:35,310 will say to them okay how do you know 499 00:21:39,770 --> 00:21:38,070 does that make sense to you and nine 500 00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:39,780 times out of ten they'll say yes even 501 00:21:44,660 --> 00:21:41,760 although it's difficult and it's been 502 00:21:48,020 --> 00:21:44,670 traumatic I understand that now this 503 00:21:50,540 --> 00:21:48,030 isn't me telling them what to say this 504 00:21:53,540 --> 00:21:50,550 is then coming from that deep place that 505 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:53,550 inner knowing that is answering me and I 506 00:21:59,510 --> 00:21:56,730 actually challenge but over lunch once 507 00:22:01,010 --> 00:21:59,520 and because I said okay but I understand 508 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:01,020 your perspective and I know you feel 509 00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:03,210 we're being manipulated and I'm not 510 00:22:07,910 --> 00:22:05,520 saying that some people are not because 511 00:22:10,670 --> 00:22:07,920 I don't know I'm only looking at what 512 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:10,680 people tell me in that deep space of 513 00:22:15,770 --> 00:22:12,810 that inner knowing and this is what they 514 00:22:20,150 --> 00:22:15,780 tell me and I have to say his response 515 00:22:22,580 --> 00:22:20,160 wasn't too positive um he decided it was 516 00:22:25,820 --> 00:22:22,590 time to leave the lunch and I will leave 517 00:22:27,950 --> 00:22:25,830 it at that because I know that bud has 518 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:27,960 always felt that no matter how positive 519 00:22:32,180 --> 00:22:30,810 people will say their experience was he 520 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:32,190 would actually say they're being 521 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:33,930 manipulated and there's nothing you can 522 00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:38,250 do if a mindset is I've decided that 523 00:22:44,060 --> 00:22:40,710 it's all negative or I decided it's all 524 00:22:46,940 --> 00:22:44,070 positive for me I don't know other than 525 00:22:49,220 --> 00:22:46,950 my role as a therapist is to help people 526 00:22:51,710 --> 00:22:49,230 have an understanding of their 527 00:22:54,350 --> 00:22:51,720 experience and how they choose to 528 00:22:56,060 --> 00:22:54,360 understand it is their choice it's not 529 00:22:59,030 --> 00:22:56,070 for me to say well that's good or that 530 00:23:01,130 --> 00:22:59,040 span it's for them to decide through the 531 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:01,140 process of what we've done we 532 00:23:06,890 --> 00:23:03,810 not for them this makes sense and 533 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:06,900 whether or not this they feel has become 534 00:23:13,460 --> 00:23:10,490 a positive experience for them or not 535 00:23:15,950 --> 00:23:13,470 there is no point of judgment from me 536 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:15,960 because then I'm not an objective 537 00:23:22,310 --> 00:23:19,290 researcher but what I am seeing is the 538 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:22,320 nine times out of ten this ultimately 539 00:23:27,380 --> 00:23:24,930 becomes transformative and the patterns 540 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:27,390 of that happening over hundreds and 541 00:23:32,150 --> 00:23:28,650 hundreds of people I work with over 542 00:23:34,340 --> 00:23:32,160 2,000 people now and with the ones that 543 00:23:37,250 --> 00:23:34,350 are the most traumatized there's two 544 00:23:40,670 --> 00:23:37,260 reasons I've discovered one is because 545 00:23:44,450 --> 00:23:40,680 they have had human interactions with 546 00:23:46,910 --> 00:23:44,460 military which are very negative which 547 00:23:49,670 --> 00:23:46,920 ties at which they are made to believe 548 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:49,680 is actually et when it's not and that's 549 00:23:53,900 --> 00:23:52,050 the my lab site and the other one is 550 00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:53,910 that they've not fully understood their 551 00:23:58,790 --> 00:23:56,310 experience they remembered the fear but 552 00:24:01,250 --> 00:23:58,800 they haven't read the reason for that 553 00:24:03,260 --> 00:24:01,260 fear it's often fear of the unknown and 554 00:24:05,450 --> 00:24:03,270 not the experience once they've been 555 00:24:07,850 --> 00:24:05,460 taken into the experience and they've 556 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:07,860 understood why certain things have 557 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:09,930 happened it often changes their 558 00:24:16,460 --> 00:24:13,410 experience and to 180 degrees and they 559 00:24:18,590 --> 00:24:16,470 will say now I understand now anyone 560 00:24:20,660 --> 00:24:18,600 outside their can say oh well they're 561 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:20,670 wrong they're being misled or whatever 562 00:24:25,490 --> 00:24:23,010 the truth is that all we've ever got 563 00:24:28,690 --> 00:24:25,500 within ourselves is our own resonance to 564 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:28,700 truth our own BS meter if you like and 565 00:24:33,410 --> 00:24:31,410 ultimately that is what we're being 566 00:24:37,490 --> 00:24:33,420 asked to trust because we've got nothing 567 00:24:41,060 --> 00:24:37,500 else out there in you know in we're told 568 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:41,070 dis huge amounts of information some of 569 00:24:46,220 --> 00:24:43,650 its disinformation some of its lies what 570 00:24:48,530 --> 00:24:46,230 is it within us that resonates to truth 571 00:24:50,870 --> 00:24:48,540 and ultimately that's the only thing 572 00:24:53,270 --> 00:24:50,880 we've got because actually nobody has 573 00:24:56,270 --> 00:24:53,280 the full mandate on truth we've all got 574 00:24:58,760 --> 00:24:56,280 bit Civic and we are fed all sorts of 575 00:25:01,340 --> 00:24:58,770 mixes of truth so the only thing we've 576 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:01,350 ever got in the end is ourselves as that 577 00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:04,410 instrument of choosing what is our truth 578 00:25:09,860 --> 00:25:07,440 and everyone has the right to however 579 00:25:12,860 --> 00:25:09,870 they interpret that and my role is to 580 00:25:15,230 --> 00:25:12,870 facilitate a place where they can find 581 00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:15,240 their truth in their experience and 582 00:25:19,340 --> 00:25:17,310 nobody has a right to tell them what to 583 00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:19,350 believe around that other than what they 584 00:25:23,780 --> 00:25:22,470 choose to believe I really really 585 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:23,790 appreciate a lot of things you're saying 586 00:25:27,410 --> 00:25:25,890 there i think it's it's fantastic i want 587 00:25:30,860 --> 00:25:27,420 to pick up on a couple of them and get 588 00:25:34,490 --> 00:25:30,870 your thoughts one is you said that I 589 00:25:36,980 --> 00:25:34,500 think we cannot necessarily put too much 590 00:25:39,890 --> 00:25:36,990 emphasis on the trauma and and that may 591 00:25:42,350 --> 00:25:39,900 not sound right but III guess I'd relate 592 00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:42,360 it to the shamanic experience that we 593 00:25:46,340 --> 00:25:44,130 know about through cultures and it's 594 00:25:47,870 --> 00:25:46,350 often a very traumatic experience and 595 00:25:49,610 --> 00:25:47,880 it's it's even understood to be a 596 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:49,620 traumatic experience you know you don't 597 00:25:55,220 --> 00:25:52,890 choose to go through that but you go 598 00:25:57,260 --> 00:25:55,230 through it and it's kind of for your own 599 00:26:00,680 --> 00:25:57,270 good now there's some folks that would 600 00:26:01,820 --> 00:26:00,690 not be inclined to go there and think 601 00:26:04,970 --> 00:26:01,830 that that might be a little bit too 602 00:26:06,500 --> 00:26:04,980 generous in terms of ascribing those 603 00:26:08,810 --> 00:26:06,510 kind of motives to this contact 604 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:08,820 experience what do you think about that 605 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:11,010 I think it depends on what level that 606 00:26:14,930 --> 00:26:13,290 you're looking at your life let's face 607 00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:14,940 it there are lots of things that happen 608 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:17,370 in our lives that seem unfair and if you 609 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:19,050 look at it from the standard viewpoint 610 00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:20,970 is why need I'll say to you why does 611 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:22,710 this always happen to me why did I have 612 00:26:27,350 --> 00:26:25,170 such a terrible childhood when other 613 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:27,360 people have lovely childhoods and you 614 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:29,970 know we could look at the how life is 615 00:26:33,890 --> 00:26:32,250 unfair for so many people people that 616 00:26:36,890 --> 00:26:33,900 are starving in Africa and what have you 617 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:36,900 and it makes no sense why do some people 618 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:38,490 have a beautiful life and others have a 619 00:26:44,270 --> 00:26:41,970 traumatic one well it's the big question 620 00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:44,280 and the only answers that I got by 621 00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:46,710 working with people on deeper levels and 622 00:26:52,130 --> 00:26:49,200 by working with people that were looking 623 00:26:56,030 --> 00:26:52,140 beyond the norm was that I can't I've 624 00:26:59,890 --> 00:26:56,040 come to believe that we are on a soul 625 00:27:02,930 --> 00:26:59,900 journey that we have chosen if you like 626 00:27:06,290 --> 00:27:02,940 certain experiences in our lives that 627 00:27:07,910 --> 00:27:06,300 enable us as a soul to grow and for each 628 00:27:10,370 --> 00:27:07,920 one of them it's different for some of 629 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:10,380 us it will be perhaps experiencing 630 00:27:15,020 --> 00:27:12,570 limits starving in Africa or whatever 631 00:27:17,290 --> 00:27:15,030 for some of us it may be learning about 632 00:27:19,700 --> 00:27:17,300 compassion or learning about 633 00:27:22,940 --> 00:27:19,710 non-judgment or whatever and so we set 634 00:27:24,180 --> 00:27:22,950 up I believe as a soul the life journey 635 00:27:26,639 --> 00:27:24,190 that we 636 00:27:28,529 --> 00:27:26,649 this time and the reason that I feel 637 00:27:31,169 --> 00:27:28,539 that's correct is that I've worked with 638 00:27:32,820 --> 00:27:31,179 many people in in what's known as in 639 00:27:35,399 --> 00:27:32,830 between lives where they leave one 640 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:35,409 lifetime and they shoot they say they 641 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:37,450 choose the next one they choose their 642 00:27:42,869 --> 00:27:40,090 parents that their siblings etc and so 643 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:42,879 you'd say well why would you choose such 644 00:27:47,580 --> 00:27:45,129 extraordinary traumatic kinds of 645 00:27:49,889 --> 00:27:47,590 experiences and some of them say because 646 00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:49,899 that's the greatest growth that's when 647 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:52,480 we learn more about ourselves and we 648 00:27:57,539 --> 00:27:54,370 also through that experience can help 649 00:28:00,419 --> 00:27:57,549 others through that experience so where 650 00:28:02,430 --> 00:28:00,429 is the they ask and I vast this well 651 00:28:05,129 --> 00:28:02,440 where's the free will then in that other 652 00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:05,139 than our soul has chosen that and the 653 00:28:10,799 --> 00:28:07,600 the free will is our in our attitude to 654 00:28:14,399 --> 00:28:10,809 it do we see our difficult experiences 655 00:28:19,639 --> 00:28:14,409 as victims or do we say through that 656 00:28:24,899 --> 00:28:19,649 experience I gained so much insight into 657 00:28:29,399 --> 00:28:24,909 compassion or into empathy or into how I 658 00:28:31,649 --> 00:28:29,409 cannot judge anymore so as a counselor 659 00:28:33,899 --> 00:28:31,659 and as a therapist I'm always with 660 00:28:35,999 --> 00:28:33,909 someone offering them a chance for a 661 00:28:38,519 --> 00:28:36,009 different perspective on what evers 662 00:28:41,159 --> 00:28:38,529 happens so that they can let it go and 663 00:28:44,249 --> 00:28:41,169 heal and this is the same thing again is 664 00:28:45,899 --> 00:28:44,259 that I do believe that not all people 665 00:28:48,210 --> 00:28:45,909 that have these experiences are 666 00:28:50,159 --> 00:28:48,220 traumatized only about thirty percent 667 00:28:53,039 --> 00:28:50,169 are traumatized septic sent or not 668 00:28:55,850 --> 00:28:53,049 they're more traumatized by being on a 669 00:28:59,549 --> 00:28:55,860 planet that is barbaric and primitive 670 00:29:02,190 --> 00:28:59,559 they say I don't like it here I know 671 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:02,200 I've got something to do my interaction 672 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:03,970 with the beings is totally loving 673 00:29:08,639 --> 00:29:06,850 they're my family and I feel like I've 674 00:29:11,190 --> 00:29:08,649 been dumped on this very primitive 675 00:29:14,220 --> 00:29:11,200 planet now that's about sixty to seventy 676 00:29:16,799 --> 00:29:14,230 percent of those that contact me and the 677 00:29:20,399 --> 00:29:16,809 other thirty percent may be traumatized 678 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:20,409 and I believe that like Janet does that 679 00:29:25,950 --> 00:29:23,610 this is for some a modern-day shamanic 680 00:29:28,919 --> 00:29:25,960 experience where they are asked to 681 00:29:30,389 --> 00:29:28,929 transcend their fears and go to a new 682 00:29:33,570 --> 00:29:30,399 place of awareness and understanding 683 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:33,580 which the show man has to do he has to 684 00:29:38,490 --> 00:29:35,650 or she has to trance 685 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:38,500 send their fears to go into and it and 686 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:40,450 experience other realms and if they 687 00:29:45,420 --> 00:29:42,850 haven't overcome their human fears they 688 00:29:48,270 --> 00:29:45,430 can't operate in a multi-dimensional 689 00:29:51,030 --> 00:29:48,280 reality which is where I feel we're 690 00:29:55,140 --> 00:29:51,040 going as a species no no mirror do you 691 00:29:58,620 --> 00:29:55,150 think that perhaps this is why Hopkins 692 00:30:00,960 --> 00:29:58,630 and Jacobs have gotten a different 693 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:00,970 message and that is that I think they're 694 00:30:06,540 --> 00:30:03,210 coming at this from a humanist 695 00:30:10,050 --> 00:30:06,550 non-spiritual kind of academic there's 696 00:30:13,010 --> 00:30:10,060 only this kind of existence perspective 697 00:30:15,090 --> 00:30:13,020 do you think that worldview is maybe 698 00:30:18,930 --> 00:30:15,100 shaping a little bit what they're 699 00:30:21,150 --> 00:30:18,940 getting I do feel that I feel simply 700 00:30:24,030 --> 00:30:21,160 because if you don't take in the 701 00:30:28,110 --> 00:30:24,040 spiritual component you're missing the 702 00:30:30,270 --> 00:30:28,120 most vital part of who we are most 703 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:30,280 people acknowledge that we are not just 704 00:30:35,250 --> 00:30:32,890 a physical container that we are spirit 705 00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:35,260 and the Spirit is our consciousness and 706 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:38,110 it's our consciousness that animates our 707 00:30:44,460 --> 00:30:41,050 physical body and drives the journey on 708 00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:44,470 this planet but that isn't as I said all 709 00:30:51,180 --> 00:30:49,150 of who we are we are here and spirit 710 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:51,190 souls having a human journey and we've 711 00:30:56,550 --> 00:30:53,650 chosen our container for that journey 712 00:30:59,490 --> 00:30:56,560 because we can't just be light here we 713 00:31:02,010 --> 00:30:59,500 have to have some density and until you 714 00:31:03,990 --> 00:31:02,020 go to that point everything is about 715 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:04,000 what's being done to you rather than 716 00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:06,130 actually taking part in the fact that 717 00:31:11,820 --> 00:31:09,310 you may actually be the pilot of your 718 00:31:14,460 --> 00:31:11,830 own journey even if at the moment you 719 00:31:16,890 --> 00:31:14,470 don't always remember that particular 720 00:31:19,050 --> 00:31:16,900 fat and that's part of the awakening for 721 00:31:21,540 --> 00:31:19,060 us to realize that we are actually 722 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:21,550 pilots in our own journey and that we 723 00:31:27,300 --> 00:31:24,850 are part of what we create as ways of 724 00:31:30,180 --> 00:31:27,310 the soul gaining information and 725 00:31:32,790 --> 00:31:30,190 experience and that's how it makes sense 726 00:31:35,730 --> 00:31:32,800 to people okay but let's look at this 727 00:31:37,980 --> 00:31:35,740 through another lens because I'm 728 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:37,990 inclined to agree with you on hopkins 729 00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:40,570 and jacobs and that i think they've 730 00:31:45,990 --> 00:31:43,510 brought a lot of valuable insights to 731 00:31:49,050 --> 00:31:46,000 this they've been pioneers and i really 732 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:49,060 look forward to fully exploring dr. 733 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:49,570 Jacobs 734 00:31:54,420 --> 00:31:51,490 perspective on this and giving him a 735 00:31:56,550 --> 00:31:54,430 fair shot at it because I really do 736 00:31:59,310 --> 00:31:56,560 respect and admire his work but let's 737 00:32:02,970 --> 00:31:59,320 say I'm with you on the fact that if you 738 00:32:04,950 --> 00:32:02,980 are predisposed to not look at or 739 00:32:08,670 --> 00:32:04,960 downplay the spiritual aspect of this 740 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:08,680 you might get a different look at it but 741 00:32:12,300 --> 00:32:10,210 let's switch over phone and I want to 742 00:32:14,430 --> 00:32:12,310 talk about it from transformative 743 00:32:16,350 --> 00:32:14,440 spiritual experience perspective right 744 00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:16,360 so I told you I've worked a lot with the 745 00:32:21,390 --> 00:32:18,880 nde researchers and trying to understand 746 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:21,400 what's going on there the reality of the 747 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:22,930 phenomenon I think which at this point 748 00:32:27,030 --> 00:32:25,090 is just firmly established anyone who 749 00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:27,040 doesn't think that's a reality just 750 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:29,200 doesn't know the data hasn't done the 751 00:32:32,940 --> 00:32:31,330 research but the second part of it which 752 00:32:34,770 --> 00:32:32,950 is more challenging and it's the kind of 753 00:32:36,900 --> 00:32:34,780 stuff we're talking about here is what 754 00:32:40,020 --> 00:32:36,910 does this mean what can we really 755 00:32:41,820 --> 00:32:40,030 understand from these accounts and I 756 00:32:43,980 --> 00:32:41,830 don't want to go too far with that 757 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:43,990 because I think that's dangerous it is 758 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:47,050 like the alien encounter accounts they 759 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:48,970 kind of quickly go in a million 760 00:32:54,270 --> 00:32:50,890 different directions and it's hard to 761 00:32:57,060 --> 00:32:54,280 find some central themes but if i was 762 00:33:00,360 --> 00:32:57,070 going to compare the central themes and 763 00:33:02,790 --> 00:33:00,370 ideas from the near-death experience to 764 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:02,800 the alien abduction experience there's 765 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:06,370 some issues there or some unresolvable 766 00:33:11,730 --> 00:33:08,530 for me issues in the near-death 767 00:33:13,350 --> 00:33:11,740 experience there isn't any trauma really 768 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:13,360 there isn't the kind of trauma we're 769 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:15,370 talking about here there isn't the 770 00:33:20,220 --> 00:33:17,890 deception at all and we have to 771 00:33:22,620 --> 00:33:20,230 acknowledge it there is a deception in 772 00:33:24,390 --> 00:33:22,630 the alien counter there's this mind 773 00:33:26,010 --> 00:33:24,400 control thing there's this forgetting 774 00:33:28,230 --> 00:33:26,020 thing and you know I don't remember any 775 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:28,240 of it and then six months later I see 776 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:30,010 something on TV and it triggers me and 777 00:33:35,060 --> 00:33:32,890 I'm in you know falling apart because I 778 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:35,070 saw it where's there's none of that and 779 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:38,890 there also isn't the technological 780 00:33:42,450 --> 00:33:40,690 component of it which is so intriguing 781 00:33:45,060 --> 00:33:42,460 about the alien economy there's a lot of 782 00:33:47,910 --> 00:33:45,070 technology with that too and again the 783 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:47,920 near-death experience totally transcends 784 00:33:56,220 --> 00:33:52,330 that it says you are a part of this soul 785 00:33:58,770 --> 00:33:56,230 group you are a part of this whole part 786 00:34:00,690 --> 00:33:58,780 of this divine people don't like the 787 00:34:03,389 --> 00:34:00,700 term God but you know all those things 788 00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:03,399 and it comes through consistently 789 00:34:08,339 --> 00:34:05,440 what do you make of the differences 790 00:34:10,769 --> 00:34:08,349 between some of these other spiritual 791 00:34:12,899 --> 00:34:10,779 spiritually transformative experiences 792 00:34:14,669 --> 00:34:12,909 like near death experience and the 793 00:34:18,510 --> 00:34:14,679 differences between that and the alien 794 00:34:21,329 --> 00:34:18,520 encounter experience again I think one 795 00:34:24,119 --> 00:34:21,339 of the things Alex that I needed to do 796 00:34:26,730 --> 00:34:24,129 was look at the patterns of the whole 797 00:34:30,299 --> 00:34:26,740 thing to do with contact as i call it 798 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:30,309 from what appears to be the abductions 799 00:34:35,819 --> 00:34:33,490 to those that say actually no I've never 800 00:34:38,789 --> 00:34:35,829 experienced that I've only experienced 801 00:34:40,829 --> 00:34:38,799 loving encounters so first of all then 802 00:34:42,629 --> 00:34:40,839 why is that why do we have some that are 803 00:34:45,329 --> 00:34:42,639 traumatized and we have some that are 804 00:34:48,710 --> 00:34:45,339 not again I go back to the soul journey 805 00:34:51,450 --> 00:34:48,720 there is a purpose behind some 806 00:34:53,819 --> 00:34:51,460 experiencing the more more traumatic one 807 00:34:56,220 --> 00:34:53,829 because it it forces them to look at 808 00:34:58,950 --> 00:34:56,230 things in a new way and there is a 809 00:35:01,170 --> 00:34:58,960 process but what does happen with 810 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:01,180 whether it's the traumatic or it's not 811 00:35:07,019 --> 00:35:04,210 non-traumatic is it's transformative and 812 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:07,029 when people say to me well you know how 813 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:08,650 do you know whether it's good or bad and 814 00:35:13,740 --> 00:35:11,170 what have you I said look I can only go 815 00:35:16,140 --> 00:35:13,750 on what ultimately happens through this 816 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:16,150 experience just like you say you know as 817 00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:17,770 an apple tree a good apple tree well the 818 00:35:22,170 --> 00:35:19,680 apples are great apples to eat and 819 00:35:24,390 --> 00:35:22,180 whatever and the apples in this 820 00:35:26,460 --> 00:35:24,400 ultimately seem to be transformative 821 00:35:29,549 --> 00:35:26,470 that people have heightened awareness 822 00:35:32,839 --> 00:35:29,559 they become more aware of a greater 823 00:35:35,250 --> 00:35:32,849 reality many of them turn away from 824 00:35:38,660 --> 00:35:35,260 materialistic values they change their 825 00:35:42,089 --> 00:35:38,670 diet many of the become healers they 826 00:35:44,609 --> 00:35:42,099 become more sensitive in terms of the 827 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:44,619 world around them they literally change 828 00:35:50,339 --> 00:35:48,730 in dramatic ways now you could say well 829 00:35:54,359 --> 00:35:50,349 you know is that a good thing or a bad 830 00:35:56,430 --> 00:35:54,369 thing well let's face it you know I'm so 831 00:35:59,279 --> 00:35:56,440 far for what I'm seeing is that they 832 00:36:01,769 --> 00:35:59,289 feel more connected to everything they 833 00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:01,779 feel like many of them feel like they've 834 00:36:07,470 --> 00:36:05,440 got a mission to do good in the world so 835 00:36:09,809 --> 00:36:07,480 if whatever this experience is is 836 00:36:13,529 --> 00:36:09,819 actually altering people's mindset into 837 00:36:15,470 --> 00:36:13,539 a more holistic uncaring an individual 838 00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:15,480 that's far more more sensitive 839 00:36:21,950 --> 00:36:18,240 to me that's the evidence of ultimately 840 00:36:23,780 --> 00:36:21,960 this experience now it may be different 841 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:23,790 the near-death experience and I think 842 00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:26,130 the soul chooses whatever wake up call 843 00:36:30,230 --> 00:36:28,350 it wants so for some it will be a 844 00:36:32,599 --> 00:36:30,240 near-death experience for some it may be 845 00:36:34,700 --> 00:36:32,609 the alien abduction for others it may be 846 00:36:36,410 --> 00:36:34,710 feeling that you're a star person or 847 00:36:38,930 --> 00:36:36,420 whatever whatever it is it may be 848 00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:38,940 profound grief experience that changes 849 00:36:43,250 --> 00:36:40,560 your whole perspective you know losing 850 00:36:46,670 --> 00:36:43,260 someone close to you we all choose our 851 00:36:49,340 --> 00:36:46,680 flag that says wake up and so it's it's 852 00:36:51,020 --> 00:36:49,350 not really about comparing you know 853 00:36:53,390 --> 00:36:51,030 oranges and apples other than the fact 854 00:36:55,460 --> 00:36:53,400 that all of it is transformative and we 855 00:36:57,020 --> 00:36:55,470 all choose a different vehicle for that 856 00:36:59,930 --> 00:36:57,030 for some we need to be slapped across 857 00:37:03,260 --> 00:36:59,940 the across the chops a bit before we get 858 00:37:05,630 --> 00:37:03,270 we get it you know because we're that's 859 00:37:07,490 --> 00:37:05,640 the nature of the soul and that saying I 860 00:37:08,450 --> 00:37:07,500 need a really rough one because the 861 00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:08,460 other ways I'm not going to take any 862 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:11,609 notice or whatever so again I see it is 863 00:37:15,140 --> 00:37:13,650 as you know what what's really 864 00:37:17,540 --> 00:37:15,150 interesting is those that believe 865 00:37:19,940 --> 00:37:17,550 something really negative has happened 866 00:37:22,849 --> 00:37:19,950 for example to them when I've taken them 867 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:22,859 into the experience what they discovered 868 00:37:27,710 --> 00:37:25,410 was nothing like what they believed and 869 00:37:29,390 --> 00:37:27,720 they will say you know I felt I was 870 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:29,400 being taken over and when I've actually 871 00:37:34,010 --> 00:37:31,890 taken them to that point and saying are 872 00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:34,020 you being taken over and they'll say 873 00:37:40,010 --> 00:37:36,240 well no actually they're giving me 874 00:37:42,410 --> 00:37:40,020 information so we come from fear we 875 00:37:44,990 --> 00:37:42,420 think the worst and we don't always know 876 00:37:46,849 --> 00:37:45,000 exactly what it is until we've got into 877 00:37:49,010 --> 00:37:46,859 that and this is what's blown me away 878 00:37:50,930 --> 00:37:49,020 because I thought as it you know I've 879 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:50,940 worked with people with trauma I thought 880 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:52,530 I'm dealing with people with tall mother 881 00:37:56,570 --> 00:37:54,810 having this terrible experience some of 882 00:37:59,150 --> 00:37:56,580 these beings are coming and doing all 883 00:38:00,950 --> 00:37:59,160 these awful things but what I found was 884 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:00,960 there are certainly some self-serving 885 00:38:07,130 --> 00:38:04,170 ones I suspect but on the whole it 886 00:38:10,430 --> 00:38:07,140 seemed to be actually so much more than 887 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:10,440 that and that is what has you know I can 888 00:38:14,630 --> 00:38:11,850 only look at the patterns I can only 889 00:38:17,210 --> 00:38:14,640 look at the data that is my research 890 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:17,220 it's not me wanting one outcome or 891 00:38:22,070 --> 00:38:19,530 another I can't do that because I don't 892 00:38:23,930 --> 00:38:22,080 know what I don't know so all I can do 893 00:38:26,270 --> 00:38:23,940 is look at the patterns and see the 894 00:38:28,110 --> 00:38:26,280 outcome and the outcome primarily 895 00:38:29,820 --> 00:38:28,120 appears to be at 896 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:29,830 they transformed individual no matter 897 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:33,610 what the journey was to that point Mary 898 00:38:38,910 --> 00:38:36,450 you work with folks all over the world 899 00:38:41,420 --> 00:38:38,920 tell us a little bit about your 900 00:38:44,850 --> 00:38:41,430 organization Australian Close Encounters 901 00:38:48,030 --> 00:38:44,860 Resource Network and tell us how folks 902 00:38:50,340 --> 00:38:48,040 can and might get in touch with you if 903 00:38:53,580 --> 00:38:50,350 they're interested in exploring this 904 00:38:56,730 --> 00:38:53,590 with you personally well it's it is just 905 00:38:59,010 --> 00:38:56,740 the website of a stern Comte you but if 906 00:39:01,530 --> 00:38:59,020 they google my name it comes up anyway 907 00:39:04,290 --> 00:39:01,540 it's very easy to find me I'm having my 908 00:39:07,020 --> 00:39:04,300 website updated as we speak because it's 909 00:39:09,150 --> 00:39:07,030 got very archaic and so it'll be even 910 00:39:11,100 --> 00:39:09,160 better for people and easier for people 911 00:39:13,170 --> 00:39:11,110 to access the information with links to 912 00:39:17,250 --> 00:39:13,180 interviews and everything else but it's 913 00:39:19,470 --> 00:39:17,260 really really easy SN Comte you you've 914 00:39:22,140 --> 00:39:19,480 done some fabulous work on this we've 915 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:22,150 spent almost an hour here on this skype 916 00:39:26,220 --> 00:39:23,890 call so I want to wrap it up but I 917 00:39:28,830 --> 00:39:26,230 definitely want to leave open the 918 00:39:32,370 --> 00:39:28,840 possibility that we can reconnect in 919 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:32,380 particular I'd love to have you back on 920 00:39:37,620 --> 00:39:35,290 after I talked to dr. Jacobs and the 921 00:39:40,230 --> 00:39:37,630 real plan I have in the back of my mind 922 00:39:44,030 --> 00:39:40,240 is to see if there's some way we 923 00:39:47,820 --> 00:39:44,040 couldn't do some kind of collaborative 924 00:39:49,620 --> 00:39:47,830 effort between these two camps to try 925 00:39:52,050 --> 00:39:49,630 and move this forward because I really 926 00:39:53,820 --> 00:39:52,060 feel that there are that there are a lot 927 00:39:56,820 --> 00:39:53,830 of people out there that want to come 928 00:39:59,340 --> 00:39:56,830 along on this journey they're 929 00:40:01,560 --> 00:39:59,350 open-minded enough not to dismiss it out 930 00:40:03,150 --> 00:40:01,570 of hand but they're still skeptical they 931 00:40:05,790 --> 00:40:03,160 don't directly have an experience with 932 00:40:07,890 --> 00:40:05,800 this and they really want to see someone 933 00:40:10,650 --> 00:40:07,900 hash this stuff out in an intelligent 934 00:40:13,650 --> 00:40:10,660 way so is that something you think you 935 00:40:15,570 --> 00:40:13,660 might be interested in joining me in um 936 00:40:18,450 --> 00:40:15,580 I would love that because there's one 937 00:40:20,430 --> 00:40:18,460 thing that that and they are anyone with 938 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:20,440 a different view can do is actually say 939 00:40:24,950 --> 00:40:22,330 well I don't want to hear any more and 940 00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:24,960 um decide to leave the lunch so I'm 941 00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:28,510 happy to do that awesome well Mary it's 942 00:40:32,790 --> 00:40:30,730 been great having you on thanks again so 943 00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:32,800 much for joining me it's not salute 944 00:40:38,370 --> 00:40:36,250 pleasure Alex thanks again to marry 945 00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:38,380 Rodwell for joining me today on skeptic 946 00:40:41,950 --> 00:40:40,720 oh I have a couple of questions 2 T up 947 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:41,960 as a result of this you 948 00:40:47,020 --> 00:40:45,050 you but they're all pretty far down the 949 00:40:49,780 --> 00:40:47,030 rabbit hole I'm really not that 950 00:40:52,030 --> 00:40:49,790 interested in the debunking oriented 951 00:40:54,790 --> 00:40:52,040 questions on this one mainly because 952 00:40:57,910 --> 00:40:54,800 what we're really trying to hone in on 953 00:41:01,089 --> 00:40:57,920 is this big divide in the UFO community 954 00:41:04,570 --> 00:41:01,099 between the david jacobs and Budd 955 00:41:08,109 --> 00:41:04,580 Hopkins camp if you will and the John 956 00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:08,119 Mack Mary Rodwell janet collie former 957 00:41:12,970 --> 00:41:10,910 guest on skeptic Oh camp so we have one 958 00:41:15,940 --> 00:41:12,980 group of people saying that alien 959 00:41:19,089 --> 00:41:15,950 abduction is an abduction it's a crime 960 00:41:21,310 --> 00:41:19,099 it's a violation of human rights and to 961 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:21,320 the extent that were led to believe it's 962 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:23,930 anything else that's part of a mind 963 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:27,290 control aspect of the experience and on 964 00:41:32,859 --> 00:41:29,810 the other hand as you just heard we have 965 00:41:36,130 --> 00:41:32,869 folks like Mary Rodwell saying no it's a 966 00:41:38,230 --> 00:41:36,140 transformative spiritual experience it 967 00:41:40,900 --> 00:41:38,240 may be a hard one it may be a rough 968 00:41:45,099 --> 00:41:40,910 shamanic initiation but that's how we 969 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:45,109 need to think of these experiences so 970 00:41:50,109 --> 00:41:47,690 the question is where do you come down 971 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:50,119 on those two camps let me hear from you 972 00:41:53,500 --> 00:41:52,010 the place of course to do it as I 973 00:41:56,260 --> 00:41:53,510 mentioned in the beginning of the show 974 00:41:59,260 --> 00:41:56,270 is in the skeptic o form which you can 975 00:42:03,460 --> 00:41:59,270 get to from The Skeptical website at ske 976 00:42:05,829 --> 00:42:03,470 pti KO kaam if you're not already a 977 00:42:07,870 --> 00:42:05,839 subscriber to the show we have a 978 00:42:10,300 --> 00:42:07,880 subscribe link where you can get an 979 00:42:13,089 --> 00:42:10,310 email update when a new show is released 980 00:42:15,070 --> 00:42:13,099 there's also of course an itune 981 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:15,080 subscription button there on the website 982 00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:16,970 and you can subscribe that way as well 983 00:42:21,490 --> 00:42:19,040 well as i've been mentioning i have 984 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:21,500 several more interviews on this topic 985 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:24,290 i'm not exactly sure how I'm going to 986 00:42:28,390 --> 00:42:26,450 piece them all together but I do have an 987 00:42:31,690 --> 00:42:28,400 interview coming up with david jacobs a 988 00:42:34,150 --> 00:42:31,700 couple of david jacobs detractors and a 989 00:42:37,030 --> 00:42:34,160 follow-up interview with mary Rodwell so 990 00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:37,040 so i probably have two or three episodes 991 00:42:43,089 --> 00:42:40,609 of material there and i'll be working my 992 00:42:46,900 --> 00:42:43,099 way through it and bringing it to you 993 00:42:49,540 --> 00:42:46,910 just as soon as i can do stay with me